topic Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM in Alfresco Archive

Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM

kvc — Fri, 12 May 2006 18:45:41 GMT

As you know, Alfresco is working on adding robust, easy-to-use WCM services to the Alfresco platform. And, as ever, we are keen to make certain we are (a) building the OOTB capabilities you as a development community require and (b) are providing all the necessary hooks you need to extend or custom

Re: Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM

rdanner — Sat, 13 May 2006 01:49:48 GMT

As you know, Alfresco is working on adding robust, easy-to-use WCM services to the Alfresco platform. And, as ever, we are keen to make certain we are (a) building the OOTB capabilities you as a development community require and (b) are providing all the necessary hooks you need to extend or customize our solution to fit your needs.

If you have not already taken a look at our wiki, we outline the different components we are focused on, with particular attention to detail around our updated versioning model and the production model (dev –> preview –> staging) associated with it. For those who have not seen the wiki, you can find it here:

http://wiki.alfresco.com/wiki/New_Web_Content_Management_Plan

To open this forum, we would like to open with an open question: what are YOUR key priorities for WCM? What services are essential for deploying in your organizations, and specifically what types of websites would you look to be using for? We would appreciate any feedback on needs, use cases, and examples … we want to ensure that we are building you the right product. Let's get the discussion rolling, and if you have any specific feedback on what's already on the wiki, fire away!

My first comment is that I absolutely love that you are designing on the wiki. and that your roadmap is as verbose as it is… outstanding, please keep it up.

I have a question regarding the versioning and transparent file based system. I think it is very cool. My question is, does it work well with JCR, are there implications in terms of JCR compliance? I don?t know how you plan to implement it but JCR has some things regarding workspaces etc that are not allowed. Maybe a better question to ask is how will the version layers be implemented which I am guessing will eventually show up in the wiki at sooner then later at the rate that Mr. Cox works 

Re: Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM

rdanner — Sat, 13 May 2006 23:27:26 GMT

Will transparent layers be rolled in to the core repository and client layers and leveraged by the WCM module?

I have been thinking about another kind of folder. One you might call a Targeted folder, or Query based folder / Dynamic Folder. As properties of the folder you would set a Query and a Template. When the folder contents were traversed they would execute the query and render the results with the transform.

This would allow me to manage my document in one way but allow a certain group of users to view them as organized according to their needs. For example If I kept URL information as metadata about documents I could use the query and the template to render a folder structure that looks like a docroot. I can manage the content in a structure which is less temporal and allow users with managing for a specific channel to work in the context they are familiar with.

Re: Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM

kvc — Sun, 14 May 2006 00:29:42 GMT

My question is, does it work well with JCR, are there implications in terms of JCR compliance? I don?t know how you plan to implement it but JCR has some things regarding workspaces etc that are not allowed.

Yes, we are actively mapping the semantics of our updated versioning model to enhancements being rolled into JSR-283. Our commitment remains the same as ever: to be the most robust, scalable, and best performing JCR on the market. Any and all changes will only further our commitment to building you the best available content repository for your websites / web-based apps.

Re: Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM

kvc — Sun, 14 May 2006 00:33:57 GMT

Will transparent layers be rolled in to the core repository and client layers and leveraged by the WCM module?

Yes, all enhancements to the version model will be in the core repository and simply leveraged by the web apps extensions we will be making as part of the WCM module.

I have been thinking about another kind of folder. One you might call a Targeted folder, or Query based folder / Dynamic Folder. As properties of the folder you would set a Query and a Template. When the folder contents were traversed they would execute the query and render the results with the transform.

Love it. We've bandied about this idea a few weeks back as well. We'll keep this in mind … many, many use cases for this. Keep the ideas coming!

Re: Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM

britt — Tue, 16 May 2006 05:46:10 GMT

I have been thinking about another kind of folder. One you might call a Targeted folder, or Query based folder / Dynamic Folder. As properties of the folder you would set a Query and a Template. When the folder contents were traversed they would execute the query and render the results with the transform.

This would allow me to manage my document in one way but allow a certain group of users to view them as organized according to their needs. For example If I kept URL information as metadata about documents I could use the query and the template to render a folder structure that looks like a docroot. I can manage the content in a structure which is less temporal and allow users with managing for a specific channel to work in the context they are familiar with.

As Kevin has said, we've had the same notion. It's a very powerful idea, but one that needs to be crafted carefully. The most exciting form of dynamic folder is one that, as you say, executes a query on traversal. The problem I see with that in the general case is performance. A query can be arbitrarily complex and therefore can be expensive to process. How would you feel about semi-dynamic folders to start with? By semi-dynamic I mean a folder that is populated by a query, but only explicitly, by a 'refresh' operation. This wouldn't preclude fully dynamic folders. We could still provide that service, with the proviso of "be careful with your dynamic queries", but it might save headaches if we didn't have to. The scenario I worry about is someone setting up a fully-dynamic folder with a 6 way join that takes 30 seconds to execute, because you've got 50,000,000 documents in the system. Then the performance complaints come in to the Alfresco administrator. It's always a delicate balance between bullet-proof and flexibility.

Please let me know what you think.

Re: Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM

rdanner — Wed, 17 May 2006 14:02:39 GMT

I have been thinking about another kind of folder. One you might call a Targeted folder, or Query based folder / Dynamic Folder. As properties of the folder you would set a Query and a Template. When the folder contents were traversed they would execute the query and render the results with the transform.

This would allow me to manage my document in one way but allow a certain group of users to view them as organized according to their needs. For example If I kept URL information as metadata about documents I could use the query and the template to render a folder structure that looks like a docroot. I can manage the content in a structure which is less temporal and allow users with managing for a specific channel to work in the context they are familiar with.

As Kevin has said, we've had the same notion. It's a very powerful idea, but one that needs to be crafted carefully. The most exciting form of dynamic folder is one that, as you say, executes a query on traversal. The problem I see with that in the general case is performance. A query can be arbitrarily complex and therefore can be expensive to process. How would you feel about semi-dynamic folders to start with? By semi-dynamic I mean a folder that is populated by a query, but only explicitly, by a 'refresh' operation. This wouldn't preclude fully dynamic folders. We could still provide that service, with the proviso of "be careful with your dynamic queries", but it might save headaches if we didn't have to. The scenario I worry about is someone setting up a fully-dynamic folder with a 6 way join that takes 30 seconds to execute, because you've got 50,000,000 documents in the system. Then the performance complaints come in to the Alfresco administrator. It's always a delicate balance between bullet-proof and flexibility.

Please let me know what you think.

I think the semi dynamic folders are a fine way to start. I don?t think it?s a feature that should be lightly used in any case. Both the Transparent layers and Dynamic folder concepts provide great power. They help fulfill the idea that the system is a collection of objects; the organization of those objects is a matter of perception. Certain users will want to perceive the repository one way while others will need to see it through an alternative lens.

The issues I have been pondering is how to help the user understand where the line between reality and perceived reality is. It gets pretty interesting when you start mixing forms of multiple forms indirection and recursion where circular links are possible etc.

They need to be able to "see" the complexity they are building so they can make sure they don?t drive the thing off the edge. After all the number most appreciated design principles is "Keep It Simple Stupid".

Re: Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM

dking — Mon, 16 Oct 2006 21:06:53 GMT

First, I love the product as it seems to be developing.

I need good usability for my Marketing team. This means easy finding of and linking to images and Web pages, link management, navigation building and maintenance, etc. I don't see that the WYSIWYG editor you're using offers the Web page parts, nor can I find anything on how how to create true (X)HTML fields and edit their source; and I haven't found the type of information that would help me understand how to build templates and content hierarchy structures to generate an easily navigable site.

Any thoughts on a third-party editor, and any docs around on how to create and manage the content and templates?

Thanks!

Re: Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM

kvc — Mon, 16 Oct 2006 22:27:37 GMT

First, I love the product as it seems to be developing.

I need good usability for my Marketing team. This means easy finding of and linking to images and Web pages. I don't see that the WYSIWYG editor you're using offers this, nor can I find anything on how how to create true (X)HTML fields and edit their source.

Any thoughts on FCKEditor or similar, and any docs around on how to manage the content better?

Thanks! Get this and reasonable integration with ECM workflows and I'm yours.

First, thanks so much for your enthusiasm and support! This keeps us all burning the midnight oil 🙂

Enabling a browse component is a feature enhancement we are tracking for our Dec GA release:

http://issues.alfresco.com/browse/WCM-34

(NOTE: The issues DB doesn't have all known feature enhancements, but instead has those features that we are evaluating for inclusion in the Dec GA release only)

I guess that you are requesting this and one thing more: the ability to have the same browse control enabled within the WYSIWYG text editor. I will add that to the enhancement request as a separate tracking item.

As for FCKEditor, we will take a look at what's required for that. Our goal is for the editor itself to be pluggable. We'll do some research here.

Kevin

Re: Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM

dking — Mon, 16 Oct 2006 23:02:57 GMT

Warning: novel attached. 🙂

I need good usability for my Marketing team. This means easy finding of and linking to images and Web pages, link management, navigation building and maintenance, etc. I don't see that the WYSIWYG editor you're using offers the Web page parts, nor can I find anything on how how to create true (X)HTML fields and edit their source; and I haven't found the type of information that would help me understand how to build templates and content hierarchy structures to generate an easily navigable site.

Any thoughts on a third-party editor, and any docs around on how to create and manage the content and templates?.

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

You're fast! I wrote my first post fast while on the phone (bad idea) and so edited it, but you'd obviously already quoted and started your reply.

FCKEditor is just an example; I think WCM people should let WYSIWYG editor companies do that work and then just borrow, like any of the other pluggable components you leverage. There are many, but OpenCMS did a good job of creating a very usable interface with FCKEditor.

So, yes, browsable image and content component selectors for a WYSIWYG editor that also allows direct source editing would be a key usability improvement.

Also important is an understanding of what deployment options are available. I'd read "decoupled architecture" a while back in a roadmap and was expecting that I'd be able to export content as static files to my existing Web server for final delivery, perhaps including JSP/servlet compilation and dynamic content rendering. I haven't found anything that helps me understand the delivery model. Do I have to deploy Alfresco in production and do some sort of database replication? (Maybe I need to comb through admin docs to understand deployment options…)

I ask these questions because we have legacy CGI that still needs supporting and I could see rolling out a WCM system in stages, integrated with large, not-yet-converted content sets still delivered by the existing infrastructure.

Another issue: I saw that I can assign the date something becomes active/inactive, but not a time selector. Press releases go out at specific times, usually 8:00 am Eastern, when I'm asleep. How granular is the control?

At the risk of making your eyes roll back, I'll give you a basic rundown of my ideal scenario: my department uses ECM to collaboratively develop content: images, signage, product datasheets, Web content (this I already grok in Alfresco). The final workflow for some types of files includes posting to the Intranet and the corporate site, which includes a superset of the corporate site plus access-restricted content for only some of the company. It's getting the content out through different servers with different access restrictions at different spots on the network in relation to the firewall that I don't get yet. I've seen products with sophisticated concepts of deployment targets; is this a different model than yours?

And since I'm putting you to sleep, what about the import tool? It's treated in a very cursory way and when I unzip the sample site I find an entire Web application rather than a regular htdocs directory, but pages that are essentially static. I have hundreds of Dreamweaver-based pages to import and Dreamweaver creates a very regular file structure that it should be possible to map to an XML schema. Haybe I convert the files to XML or maybe Alfresco can, but how can I migrate content to a schema-based format Alfresco manages with the groovy XForms abilities?

Keep up the good work.

Re: Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM

kvc — Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:01:16 GMT

You completely grok where we are going with WCM!

First, for de-coupled delivery, we will support numerous options:

1. Deploying completely statically managed or generated sites to a naked FS
2. Deploying a dynamic site by deploying application resources (JSPs) to the
     file-system and content to a run-time Alfresco repository
3. Deploying any web app or script-driven site to a native file-system, with
     option to customize deployment of content to any sort of non-Alfresco
     repository

Our goal is to build a full-fledged content distribtion product. This will handle export and import of content from Alfresco server instance to Alfresco server instance, to file-systems, etc. When you create a website you will register a deployment model for the site, and the model can support deployment of a site to one or more target servers (if you recall, our engineers were part of the original core Interwoven team, so we are familiar with complex deployment models).

For DreamWeaver-based sites, we will be adding support for the CIFs interface. Goal is to drag-and-drop existing sites to get benefits of workflow and version control, and over time migrate to structured content publishing.

I'll take as a requirement adding details to the wiki on deployment models. Basically, where you are expecting us to go is bang dead-on.

Kevin

Re: Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM

dking — Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:31:28 GMT

I'll take as a requirement adding details to the wiki on deployment models.
Kevin

That would be great. Hopefully it will make clear how URLs are defined and made search engine-friendly.

Also important for understanding how to use the WCM will be documentation on how to write the XSLTs and JSPs. Mainly, how do I get a reference to the information architecture/taxonomy so I can build navigation menus and breadcrumbs? (Again I hope I'm not missing something in the Wiki/forums, where I did look. Have I mentioned how important good documentation is? Presumably the supported versions will include professional docs; I'm willing to pay for this.)

BTW, I re-read the thread here and realized (as you clearly stated) that the browse feature was envisioned for December but not necessarily as part of the WYSIWYG editor. To me, WCM is to a large extent about enabling non-technical users. If they have to understand how to copy and paste image dimensions from the properties of the image they have to right-click to get to and then copy the URL (without introducing a specific server domain which then breaks the sandbox concept, and which introduces links that the system can't update if a file name is changed) then you're missing an important user group. Every product I've seen has this, and the better ones enable search; Ingeniux's is cool, with autosuggestions for files matching the name pattern as you type it. I know you get this, but want to underline it because I probably can't use the product without this. Internal reference integrity and ease of use is not optional.

Re: Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM

rrahman — Tue, 17 Oct 2006 19:32:34 GMT

WCM–excellent! I'm representing federal agency interest in enterprise web content management and am looking forward to share our requirements and discussions on web contenet management systems.

Thanks, I'm very excited about this addition to alfresco!

Re: Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM

kvc — Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:47:51 GMT

Also important for understanding how to use the WCM will be documentation on how to write the XSLTs and JSPs. Mainly, how do I get a reference to the information architecture/taxonomy so I can build navigation menus and breadcrumbs? (Again I hope I'm not missing something in the Wiki/forums, where I did look. Have I mentioned how important good documentation is? Presumably the supported versions will include professional docs; I'm willing to pay for this.)

Yes, got it. This is actual already in progress for the GA release.

BTW, I re-read the thread here and realized (as you clearly stated) that the browse feature was envisioned for December but not necessarily as part of the WYSIWYG editor. To me, WCM is to a large extent about enabling non-technical users. If they have to understand how to copy and paste image dimensions from the properties of the image they have to right-click to get to and then copy the URL (without introducing a specific server domain which then breaks the sandbox concept, and which introduces links that the system can't update if a file name is changed) then you're missing an important user group. Every product I've seen has this, and the better ones enable search; Ingeniux's is cool, with autosuggestions for files matching the name pattern as you type it. I know you get this, but want to underline it because I probably can't use the product without this. Internal reference integrity and ease of use is not optional.

We've updated WCM-34 to include this. We're getting this feedback from a number of sources.

Kevin

Re: Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM

dking — Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:15:39 GMT

Also important for understanding how to use the WCM will be documentation on how to write the XSLTs and JSPs. Mainly, how do I get a reference to the information architecture/taxonomy so I can build navigation menus and breadcrumbs? (Again I hope I'm not missing something in the Wiki/forums, where I did look. Have I mentioned how important good documentation is? Presumably the supported versions will include professional docs; I'm willing to pay for this.)

Yes, got it. This is actual already in progress for the GA release.

Kevin

Great, I'll look forward to reading it and trying this out. Let us all know when a draft is available; I'm assuming you'll want feedback on this part of the functionality before GA, and I'd like to see what the approach is since I'd be spending many hours up to my elbows here. You see a lot of tangled stuff in some products when you get down to this level.

Re: Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM

dking — Wed, 18 Oct 2006 16:54:09 GMT

Hi Kevin et al.,

One important aspect of Web site management is keeping language versions in sync and managing the links between content items that represent the same information in different languages. The Java web app frameworks I'm familiar with almost enforce good internationalization using properties files for messages and page text, but many of the WCM systems I've seen leave it to the site developer to decide what the data structures are and how localization will be managed (OpenCMS has a nice concept of siblings so that a content asset is aware of its translated equivalents). Which approach will you take: allow implementations to roll their own because deployments vary; or design an internationalization strategy to make this easier in at least some scenarios?

In my case, I plan to have one site with three languages available rather than having three different monolingual domains, and I'd likely benefit from a facilitated i18n/l10n strategy, or at least a discussion of suggested implementation options.

Thanks!

Re: Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM

rdanner — Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:38:50 GMT

I have been thinking about another kind of folder. One you might call a Targeted folder, or Query based folder / Dynamic Folder. As properties of the folder you would set a Query and a Template. When the folder contents were traversed they would execute the query and render the results with the transform.

This would allow me to manage my document in one way but allow a certain group of users to view them as organized according to their needs. For example If I kept URL information as metadata about documents I could use the query and the template to render a folder structure that looks like a docroot. I can manage the content in a structure which is less temporal and allow users with managing for a specific channel to work in the context they are familiar with.

As Kevin has said, we've had the same notion. It's a very powerful idea, but one that needs to be crafted carefully. The most exciting form of dynamic folder is one that, as you say, executes a query on traversal. The problem I see with that in the general case is performance. A query can be arbitrarily complex and therefore can be expensive to process. How would you feel about semi-dynamic folders to start with? By semi-dynamic I mean a folder that is populated by a query, but only explicitly, by a 'refresh' operation. This wouldn't preclude fully dynamic folders. We could still provide that service, with the proviso of "be careful with your dynamic queries", but it might save headaches if we didn't have to. The scenario I worry about is someone setting up a fully-dynamic folder with a 6 way join that takes 30 seconds to execute, because you've got 50,000,000 documents in the system. Then the performance complaints come in to the Alfresco administrator. It's always a delicate balance between bullet-proof and flexibility.

Please let me know what you think.

I dropped the ball on this. I think this is absolutely a strong idea and in addition to that I think we might consider having the ability to "Materialize the folder" where the fodler turns into a folder containing the links to the documents that are part of the query result projection.

Re: Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM

marcus — Wed, 18 Oct 2006 22:35:31 GMT

Another system I used to work with extensively had a feature very similar to the "query folder" idea, but it was a bit more general and called something like "Record Set Data Source". It had different flavours to it, which meant that as well as a search query, there were instances that could generate the list based on an SQL query, RSS consumption, SOAP call etc.

Re: Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM

kvc — Fri, 20 Oct 2006 12:45:21 GMT

Great, I'll look forward to reading it and trying this out. Let us all know when a draft is available; I'm assuming you'll want feedback on this part of the functionality before GA, and I'd like to see what the approach is since I'd be spending many hours up to my elbows here. You see a lot of tangled stuff in some products when you get down to this level.

Will do. Email me next Friday and we will arrange time with our developers to review our plan here.

Kevin

Re: Your Feedback on Needs / Use Cases for Alfresco WCM

smcclelland — Tue, 14 Nov 2006 22:11:38 GMT

There are many ways to support this in the product but it was not clear to me "out of the box". A simple case is a product catalog or photo gallery. I would like to have a page that allows related pieces to be added at once.

HTML data describing the item
large catalog image
thumbnail image

this would allow a quick catalog or photo gallery to be constructed. I want a non tech user to be able to add, edit, or remove something like this in one screen. In the way that you have the +/- buttons for adding paragraphs I'd want users to add images.